190 | Mindset Mixed with Debt Freedom with Gabe and Olisi

My clients Gabe and Olisi found themselves struggling with their debt balances and feeling stressed.

But they were so focused on the negatives of their finances that they missed the positive things they were doing with their money.

Although we worked on paying down their debt, a bigger part of our work together was improving their money mindset.

In this episode, listen in as Gabe, Olisi, and I chat about our work together, what they’ve accomplished, and how they’re feeling about their finances now.

• • Gabe and Olisi’s previous struggles with debt, impulse spending, and financial stress
  • the influence our upbringing has on the way we handle money
  • creating a plan for Gabe and Olisi’s finances
  • an overview of the progress Gabe and Olisi made with their finances in six months
  • the importance of looking at your finances objectively, rather than only focusing on the negative
  • maintaining flexibility in managing your budget
  • the impact of your money mindset on your finances

You’re listening to Wealthyesque. We are a community of lawyers who believe that true wealth is having control of our time. I’m Rho Thomas, and as a busy wife, mom, and former Biglaw associate, I know all too well the tension between the culture of the legal profession and pretty much everything else you want to do in life. That’s why each week, I’m bringing you the information and tools you need to improve your money mindset and manage your money to create true wealth. Because ultimately, it’s not about the money. It’s about the freedom and flexibility the money affords.

Hey friend. Welcome back to the show. I hope you’re doing well and having an amazing day so far. Today, I am introducing you to my clients, Gabe and Olisi. Gabe and Olisi were struggling with the weight of debt, but they also had some good things going on with their finances, for example, their substantial savings. However, their mindset prevented them from focusing on anything but the parts of their finances that weren’t working. So we worked together to not only start paying off that debt, but also to shift their mindset and help them see their finances from a new perspective. I think you’re gonna love their story. So let’s dive in.

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Rho
Welcome to the podcast, Gabe and Olisi. How are you?

Olisi
Doing well, thank you for having us.

Gabe
We’re good. Thank you.

Rho
Thank you for being here. So for everyone listening Gabe and Olisi are clients of mine. Gabe is working in government. Olisi is a realtor. And we have just finished six months working together on their finances. So we’re gonna dive into all the things about what’s going on with them financially. But before we do that, tell us a little bit about your money journey before this whole process began.

Olisi
Well, our money journey was a bit of a uphill battle, we struggled with communication about money, it was a struggle with trying to figure out how to manage our finances, impulse spending, all of those things, but we’re doing a lot better with it now.

Gabe
Yeah I think we have an income, you know, but we weren’t really aware of sort of where money was going and where it was. And we weren’t really tracking it very well. And so we were struggling with a lot of debt, and weren’t even able to look and say where’s even necessarily going. And so it was sort of hindering our ability to make choices about the future. And it was also just sort of a strain on our family.

Rho
So talk to us more about the strain that the debt had, and like how you were feeling in that time, because I think a lot of people can relate to that. So tell us more about what you were dealing with and the emotion around it.

Olisi
I can say for myself that I grew up not talking about money, my parents didn’t really talk about money unless there was a problem. And so for me, in our relationship, it was like, every time, the conversation with money was such a negative undertone with it. And so I we get so much anxiety, and we get so much stress around it. So it was really a struggle for me, and there wasn’t really a plan in place. So we would talk about money when there was a problem. And so that was stressful to on top of the stress of just not feeling natural to me, because I wasn’t raised that way.

Gabe
And I think, you know, from my own background, I mean, I had my own sort of anxiety about about money. You know, we talked about this a lot. But I think for me, you know, sort of equated how one handles one money, one’s money with, you know, sort of the moral value in a way. And so, you know, that, to me was just evidence of some sort of a failure, or a failing. And so that really weighed a lot on me, and I think we kind of had a bit of a Yo yo, so we would incur debt, you know, not necessarily even go to point to what we necessarily did with it. Something would happen I you know, we’d have our tax money would come in or whatever, we pay it off, and then we’d be back in it, you know, and we went through, okay, let’s, you know, do some loan consolidations. But that’ll be we’re not going to take out any more debt. So we consolidate loans and then just ring up the credit cards again. So we’d have the same debt we had before plus the consolidation and we just, it felt like a kind of a, you know, being like a hamster on a wheel. Like there wasn’t any real sense of when it would end, you know, and sort of what to do about it.

Rho
I think what you’re describing is so common for so many people from you know, the anxiety the not growing up talking about money, the you know, not really knowing how to manage things, getting into debt, paying it off, getting back in like all of that. It’s so so common, and I think a lot have the negative emotions that we feel around money. We’ve talked about this, but it’s this like, arbitrary view, that debt is bad, and you’re bad if you have debt, and you shouldn’t be doing that. And, you know, it’s like, like talking down to people about, you know, debt and finances. But it’s like, how would we know if we weren’t taught if we come from a family where money wasn’t talked about? We didn’t learn about it all of that kind of thing, then how would we know? And then you learn about, oh, well, I can get this debt consolidation loan, that’s the solution. Let me do it. Right. But then we never addressed that underlying piece of not knowing how to manage the money and how we got into the debt in the first place. So I love that you brought all of that up, because I think so many people are in similar situations and can relate to what you’re talking about.

Olisi
Absolutely.

Gabe
So fortunately we found you.

Rho
Yes. So let’s talk more about that, like, how are things going with your finances now, what has changed over the time that we were working together from, you know, where you were before to how you’re managing things now?

Olisi
Well, when we first started working, I can speak for myself that I was not really wanting to do it, for the very reasons I mentioned before, because talking about money was very stressful for me. But one thing that really helped us was you guiding us on how to create a plan, how to have a budget, how to look at our networks, those were things that we just really didn’t know, or implement. And so having a plan has really changed everything. I mean, we I can say that I feel so much more positive about money, when a conversation needs to be had, we have it and it’s not no stress around it. And we do those conversations regularly. without it having to be something negative, that has happened, it’s just staying on top of our finances, which I think has been very positive. And it’s just really helped us manage our money better. When we know that we have things coming out, we plan forward. And it’s not the stress of oh, now we have this event or something we want to do. And now the only recourse we have is to throw it on a credit card. Now we can actually plan and if something comes up, like there, it has been these last six months, we’ve had unexpected expenses, we’re more calm about and we just know how to deal with it without it being the stress of you know how we’re going to do this, we know how we’re going to do this, we can plan it, we can figure it out. And so I think that’s just been really positive.

Gabe
Yeah, I agree with everything. And I would say, you know, just the emphasis on mindset has been really valuable. You often talked about the numbers or data, you know, there’s not there’s not a moral weight one way or the other to them. And data is what the date is, but that you can put a plan in place to reach whatever goal you know, and I think having that plan, having the ability to have those tools, I think also understanding in this idea that, you know, your plan can be multifaceted. So, you know, your plan isn’t going to do nothing for six years, you know, or whatever, and just, you know, just do nothing but pay off debt. No, it can be, you know, you can plan for activities, you can set aside money for emergencies, you can do stuff with your family still, while at the same time, have a plan to pay off debt. And it’s your money, you know, and it’s you get to decide what you prioritize and what you value. And you can then put that into your plan and you can act accordingly.

Rho
A few things that you guys brought up there that I want to dig into more, one having a plan that thing so often we’re going along, and we don’t have a plan. And it probably stems back to Olisi what you said about, you know, not having that guidance on how to manage your money growing up, because that’s how I was with my finances as well, where it was just like, Oh, is there money in the account, okay, I can do this thing, there wasn’t a plan for how I was going to use that money. And for that reason, like not having that plan meant that we were kind of just treading water, right? Like we weren’t making progress forward, we didn’t know exactly where we were, because we didn’t have that visibility into our finances. And so creating the plan allows you to see where you are and decide how you’re going to get to the next step, whatever that is for you. So that’s number one. Number two, often when we do start learning about money, we get so hyper focused on the improvement and we forget about living life in the process is like the goal becomes improving your money, right? So paying off your debt or saving or whatever that is, and then we miss out on life in that time. You know, I think there are people that that works for and that is perfectly fine if that’s what you want to do. But that is not the only way to make progress on your finances. It can be multifaceted. You can live life, have those experiences with your family, buy things that you want, take vacations and still be making progress on your debt. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. I think sometimes we think it does.

Olisi
Yeah.

Rho
So what are some of the things that you have been able to accomplish with your finances, and you can get as detailed or, you know, stay as broad as you, like, here. As much as you’re comfortable share with us about where you are now financially versus where you were, when you first started.

Olisi
We’ve been able to pay off a good portion of our debt, even as even surprises us how much at the end of the six months that we were able to accomplish. And that was just with implementing the plan. And with that, we were still able to do some things we were able to travel, we were able to buy some things that we wanted for ourselves, still being able to take care of our family, and our necessities and some wants too so to me, that’s a win.

Gabe
Yeah, I agree. And I think on top of that, one of the, for me, I think one of the really important things is that, you know, we didn’t have a budget. I mean, we just did you know, what, we sort of had this sort of like, messy document that like attempted to track moments of time where our money went, but there was no sort of document that sort of said, like, let’s be purposeful about buckets, how much do we want to spend on food? How much do we want to spend on this, that and the other. And so we were able to put that in place, and we had to tweak it, and that’s fine. And sometimes you may be overspent on one category, you just it, but we have that. And I think that is 180 degree difference from from where we were. And that’s, I think, been really, really important. We did pay down some debt, which is, well, not just something we pay down a lot of debt, and that and that feels really good. And we have a plan and a process in place, I think some of the things I felt good about is, you know, we had things that came up, like, you know, on a car or something we had to do that we you know, what we hadn’t planned for, but we were able to pay for that, as opposed to put, we didn’t put on a credit card, you know, whereas in the past, that’s what we would have done, you know, we had some trips, you know, went to like a wedding or whatever it was, and so fine. So instead of just swiping a credit card to get to pay for the, you know, the Airbnb or the room, we put that in the plan, and we we paid for it. And that was new for us. And if I felt accomplished doing that, and, you know, I think that sets the tone for sort of how things are moving forward.

Olisi
Yeah and then just also having positive net worth. I mean, we didn’t, we didn’t think we had positive net worth. So it was nice to see, because we weren’t tracking it. So it was nice to see that oh, wow, we were we just don’t have positive net worth. Like we’re really doing well with our net worth.

Rho
Yeah, cuz I remember when we talked initially, and you guys just knew your net worth was negative, like you just knew it was like the there was so much focus on what was not, right, or what was not how you wanted it to be with your finances that like, there wasn’t even a consideration that you were doing some things well, and so I love that you were able to see the benefit. And like just the awareness of where you are, right? Like just knowing, okay, this is where we’re starting from and actually, this is not a bad place to be starting from. And just having that awareness, because you actually tracked it, you calculated it to see what was going on, what your net worth was, and then being able to track it over the six months and see how it improved from these tweaks that you’ve made with your finances.

Gabe
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, you know, the process tended to be just a copy arise and either, you know, swipe a credit card or whatever, and was similar to just also my assessment or assumption about what our financial position was. So I never looked, I just assumed it was bad. So you know, but but being able to look and see, you know, yes, okay, there’s debt that’s true, you know, and yes, we’re dealing with that, but but that we do have a substantial amount of savings that we hadn’t thought about, you know, and that that’s part of your positive net worth. And so that was really remarkable actually. Those numbers were there all along, but I just never thought about them.

Olisi
Right.

Rho
I think that happens a lot where we’ve got this narrative in our minds of how things are, and we’re so focused on this side of the story, and we completely ignore that other side. That tells a completely different story, right? Like the same facts. But because we’re used to focusing on only these, like I talk a lot about in law, like if you’re making a case, there are always going to be facts on both sides, like facts that look really good for your clients and facts that don’t look so good. You’re not going to highlight all the bad facts when you’re like making your case. But that’s what we tend to do when we’re thinking about our finances. We only focus on the bad and completely ignore and discount the good things. And so part of the work that I do is helping you to think more objectively like thinking more holistically about it all like, yes, there might be these things that aren’t great that you don’t like that you want to improve. But let’s look at all of these good things that you’re doing and all the good things that you have going on too, because you’re going to approach your finances so much differently when you’re looking at both sides. And not only the parts that you think are negative.

Gabe
Yeah, and I think that’s remarkable. Because let’s assume for a second that there has been no yet change one way or the other, about the dollars and cents. Just changing that perspective alone can make you feel a lot better about where you are.

Rho
Exactly. One of the things that you mentioned Gabe is you guys created your plan, you created a budget, and there were times where you had to shift you had to tweak things a little bit. Can you talk about that? Because I think often we think that I created this budget, it has to be like this, like it has to be this way. So can you talk to us about how you felt about that. And of course, Olisi, you jump in as well, if you have thoughts.

Gabe
Yeah, well, you know, it’s funny, because I am sort of read tend to kind of think that very well, this is, you know, this line item says this much and so if you go over by 42 cents, that, you know, that’s bad. You know, but life is life, it happens, things change, you know, I mean, you have friends that come into town that you didn’t necessarily expect, and you’re gonna go and have a meal with them. And, you know, like, that’s okay, you know what I mean? But then you, you know, you want to be flexible, look back at that budget, and then, okay, maybe some of the fun money, you know, went to that or, or whatever. And so becoming comfortable. I think that also is some evidence of being responsible, okay. It’s nothing wrong with making adjustments, you know, and getting comfortable with that. And then also, being able to kind of over time be clear about, like, how much you actually spent. So for example, well, okay, we’re gonna budget X amount for eating out. But we always spend more than that, you know what I mean? It’s like, on one hand, does that mean you should spend less? Or is it the case that that’s just kind of like your lifestyle, and you want to make adjustments to fit overall within your budget to allow that? So I think that was a lot of the give and take, and I think that’s been very helpful.

Olisi
I totally agree. I think that part of what I think drew me and Gabe together we have a lot of similarities but we’re also different in a lot of ways. He’s very like, to the book on everything. And I’m kind of like, yeah, so let’s color outside the lines, let’s do something. Let’s, let’s go the other extreme. And we both, I think with finances were like that. And neither one of them was really ideal. So I think what’s nice is now that there’s a little bit of me and a little bit of him meshed together to make more sense of our finances. And you definitely helped us with that. It’s okay to have you know, structure, but it’s also okay to be flexible, and to figure out what works best for our family and our lifestyle.

Rho
Yes. And I think that is the key. It’s what works best for your family and your lifestyle. There is no one size fits all, this is the way that you must manage your money, and you must plan and you must spend this way. It’s what works for you and Gabe I think you even said, it’s your money, right? You get to I don’t know if you say you make the rules, but that’s what I say all the time, you get to make the rules, right. And I think so often, we outsource that authority to the personal finance experts and the you know, the amorphous, they who say that we’re supposed to do X, Y, and Z. And we forget that we actually have that authority. And we get to choose what we want to do with our finances. Even if personal finance experts or your mom or your neighbor, you know, whoever wouldn’t agree if they wouldn’t manage things the same way, because personal finance is personal. And it’s going to be dictated by what’s happening with your lifestyle. I love that you guys mentioned eating out, because I think that’s a big thing for a lot of people. And a lot of times people are like, I’ve got to spend less. I go out to eat too much. Well, yes, that’s one way to manage that. But it could be that there’s something else that you’re spending money on that you don’t care about as much. And you can cut there so that you can keep that money for your eating out because that is so important to you. Like, I know you guys are foodies, we talked about that, right? Yeah, you can have that money for eating out. And that’s okay. Let’s just look at some other categories where maybe you don’t care as much and we can cut from there so that you can continue to do this thing that’s important to you.

Olisi
Yeah, that’s great. Yeah.

Gabe
And I think another thing we experimented so for example, one of the things we felt in the beginning of things was we not only ate out, but like Uber Eats was like our de facto or just ordering food, or our kitchen would be, you know, stuff would just, you know, rot away and have to be thrown away because we’re not cooking it. So instead of like feeling bad about that we tried different things. One thing we tried for a while was to try to find a happy medium like to do like a meal prep subscription program. You know, and so we were cooking at home, but with meal preps, and ultimately, we decided not to continue with that, but it was, it certainly fit within our budget better. You know, and we weren’t ordering, you know, you know, bring it to DoorDash, four times a week.

Olisi
We brought awareness to the fact that it can be some flexibility there, when before it was like it’s cooking all the time, or nothing, like you can’t go out. And they were like, our friends are going out. And we’re like, oh, we really want to go. But no, we got to pay off this debt, we got it.

Rho
That is such a relatable experience, like eating out tends to be a big one for people. And we often think about it in those black and white terms. Either I’m cooking at home, or I’m eating out, the end, I got to choose one, I need to save money so I can’t go out to eat, I must just sit at home. And you know, and it just doesn’t have to be that way. And I love that you spoke to the fact that you’ve experimented with different things to figure out how to meet this need, right? We got to eat. But how are we going to do it in a way that still allows us to achieve these goals that we have, but also allows us to live the lifestyle that we want, to enjoy the restaurant scene and you know all of that.

Olisi
Yeah, very important.

Rho
What words of encouragement do you have for someone who is where you were six months ago, where you know, they’re feeling the stress, the strain, don’t have a plan for their finances, and they’re not sure what to do.

Olisi
I would say don’t be afraid to get help, and to change your mindset. And I would say look for Rho because I think that what sets you apart from financial planners and things like that is that you really focus on how we feel about money, what’s important to you, and making that a priority. And then the finances will follow. And so I would just encourage anyone, I mean, just six months ago, we were really like stressed about money. And that had a lot to do with our mindset and not having a plan. So don’t be afraid to plan. Don’t be afraid to look at your accounts, don’t be afraid to get the help that you need to change your mindset about money, and to be open to being flexible because I think with both Gabriel and I, there was some in flexibility there with our mindset around finances. So just be open to being more flexible. And it’s not all or nothing. You know, you can pay off your debt, you can have a better outlook about your finances while having fun and enjoying life. It’s not one or the other.

Gabe
Yeah, well, I think Olisi said it very well. I mean, I guess the first thing I’d say is for anyone, whatever their circumstances, it’s not evidence of any failure, you know, you’re not a bad person. And that with the right kind of support, you know, row, as Olisi mentioned, for us, I think the mindset was the most important thing, you know, everything else starts to fall into place, once you have a better, more holistic sort of perspective of what money is, what it isn’t, you know, what it what it means to have debt and ways to sort of think about what’s important for you and your family, and then how to have positive conversations with your mate, your household, and then putting a plan in place. And then implementing that plan, while at the same time being flexible to life’s changes and you know, not being defeated. If you know things have to shift and adjust.

Rho
I love that. Is there anything else that you guys would like to talk about that I didn’t bring up or anything else that you’d like to say?

Olisi
I would just like to say thank you, to you, rho. Thank you for really helping me personally, but helping us as a couple to really have a plan for our finances. And to really have a more positive mindset around our money. I think that this is really going to stick with us for many years to come. And I now have such a better vision for what our financial success will be even in the short term, but definitely the long term thanks to you. So I just want to say thank

Gabe
Yeah and I similarly I want to express my gratitude. You know, I think I keep coming back to the mindset but I mean, for me, that was the biggest difficulty with money, you know, was just the anxiety, you know, having trouble sleeping, waking up thinking about it, having it color sort of how I move through the world. And overnight suddenly the debt isn’t gone. We’re making progress. You know, but what we have done and what I have done is been able to with your I’ll really have a different perspective. And I think this, you know, depending on your circumstances, it may take some years to pay off your debt. But it’s like those years could be either just the worst. Or you could live your life and be happy. Because you can look at so many things that you have in your life that are good, your family, or you have children, or whatever. And you know, you can focus on those things while still paying off that debt. And you can still do things with your money that are enjoyable and beneficial for you while also, you know, paying off that debt and that mindset shift, I think, I mean, I just feel lighter as I walk around. And I’m, that’s, I’m grateful for that.

Rho
Well, thank you both for allowing me to even play a part in your journey, because it has been such an honor, such a pleasure getting to know you, working with you, all of that. And thank you for taking the time to share your story with my audience, because I know it’s going to be so helpful for so many people.

Olisi
You’re welcome. Thank you for having us on.

Gabe
Appreciate the opportunity.

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I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Gabe and Olisi. They are a living example of how changing the way you think about your money will make a huge difference in the way you feel about it as well. I am so proud of all they’ve accomplished and I hope they’ve inspired you to start making changes to your own finances. All right, that is it for this week’s episode. If you enjoyed hearing Gabe and Olisi’s story, please leave a rating and review. Just scroll to the ratings in your podcast app. Tap the number of stars you want, and leave a brief message with your thoughts. All of those things help this show reach more lawyers and I greatly appreciate your support. As we close out friend, I pray that you take the information you learn here, apply it in your life and open up to the realization that wealth is available to you. As you do that consistently. Week after week. You’ll continue to take steps to regain control of your time, build wealth, and live the life of freedom and choice you deserve. Talk to you later.